Do you know this old philosophical quandry? You have an axe, and let's say you give it the nickname "Lucille" (just like BB King). After using it for a while, the handle breaks, so you replace it. Then the blade breaks, so you replace that, too. Now, is this still Lucille, or something else? I always thought philosophers had too much time on their hands when I heard this question.
This Moment: Standing at the deli counter today, the customer next me points and tells the clerk, in a bit of a bored voice, "I don't know - I want that kind of sandwich, but that one is cold." The clerk explains, "Yes, they're cold now, but we put them on the grill or heat them up in the microwave." The customer, clearly unhappy with the response, says condescendingly, "No - If you heat it up it won't be that kind of sandwich anymore."
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This is the ancient Greek Ship of Theseus problem of identity, persistence and change, also described as the trireme problem. Simply put,if you change one board of a trireme do you have the same ship? If you change all the boards, same ship? If you change 51% of the boards, same ship? There are many interesting variations on this puzzle. See for example http://faculty/washington.edu/smcohen/320/theseus.html
ReplyDeleteThanks for a good reference. For anybody else who wants to see the page, the address is slightly off. It is faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/theseus.html
ReplyDeleteMy older son said that it becomes a new ship when all the boards have been replaced, and it simply takes on movie sequel numbering (I, II, etc.). This actually says a lot about the process of creating movie sequels.
My younger son says that unless you tear it all down and build it again, it is still the same ship. If you tear and down and build a new one, it should be designated as a "Jr."
As for the rest of the examples, I have often thought that the ultimate question is not whether we can step into the same river twice, but if can we step into a river once. That is, the introduction of our foot (or feet, if you're just jumping right in) alters what would have been the river that was there waiting to be stepped in. As in the poem "We make the path by walking," does the river we step in exist before we step in it? If we accept that the possibility of getting stepped in is a key quality of the river, then all we have done is actualized that potential, and the river is still itself. To define its essence by the fact the we have stepped in it seems to be a little egocentric. That makes me think that in any subsequent steppings in it is the same river, since the focus of what is happening is water realizing its potential for getting stepped in. The specific particles that make up the river, your foot, your boot, or your tevas, don't matter as much as the process. So if you can into a river once, you can step into it twice.
The Trireme problem hits home to us in Boston today. See Sunday, 6/21/09 Boston Globe article and video on the restoration of the 1797 USS Constitution, the oldest commissioned warship in the world that is still afloat. http://tinyurl.com/lc33d6 Old Ironsides is being historically renovated (2007-2010) and not for the first time. In fact, its very existence depends on period restoration. Now only 15% of the original material is still on the boat. To make the philosophical puzzle more interesting, this time the boat will be restored more closely to its 1812 version. So, fewer of the original materials remain, but the ship looks more like the 1812 version, closer to original (and Platonic "ideal") of Old Ironsides. In this restoration do we have _more_ of the original or _less_? The same old Ironsides or a different one?
ReplyDeleteIf they change all of the stores in a mall, is it still the same mall?
ReplyDeleteGiven the current economy, if all the stores leave is it still a mall? Do you say "There's the mall, which is empty now" or "There is that large abandoned building?" It would seem like having people gather would be a base requirement for a mall.
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